|
a conversation
between
Henrik Olesen, Jakob Kolding and Sanne Kofod Olsen
SANNE: We are sitting
in Jakob's home in Vesterbro to discuss some social and political
questions about art. Henrik is going to start by talking about his
latest exhibition in Hamburg. What was it about?
HENRIK: This show
was about poverty. I live in Berlin and every day I see a lot of
social problems in the streets. I wanted to show some of the social
consequences concerning poverty. Whether you are situated in one
city or another, a lot of people can't find a job or an apartment,
they can´t make money and get on with their lives. Being poor today
is connected to exclusion and immobility. Mobility has become an
indicator of ones social possibilities. The lucky ones move to where
they can get an education or a job. For a lot of people this is
impossible. The poor cannot escape their social environment. They
get stuck in an environment that has nothing to offer. Eastern Europeans
can't get residency in Germany, foreigners are not allowed to stay
in Denmark and the poor people in Western Europe are gathered in
ghettos or live in the streets. A lot of people today live in postindustrial
areas, where unemployment and social problems increase. We are part
of a democracy in which more and more are excluded from participating.
Today unemployment and poverty and social territories make people
local bound. I was interested in the idea of an art work being bound
to a place, as a parallel to finding oneself in a situation where
you cannot change your social position and get away. I worked on
the architectural proportions in the gallery space. Doors were made
smaller than normal and the spacial dimensions were reduced to confront
your body proportions. One door was blocked. These markings would
illustrate territories and exclusion. My idea was that you would
move within a set-up where your body would not fit the surroundings.
I wanted every banal movement to involve some kind of mental or
physical complication, so you would constantly get to know that
you were not fitting into the physical conditions.
SANNE: One can also
say that exclusion is part of your project, Jakob. Exclusion in
relation to modernist utopias that no longer exist, but utopias
which people at a general level in society nonetheless attempts
to transfer into a social reality, and as an effect in certain circumstances
are leading to social problems. How is this dealt with in your work
Jakob?
JAKOB: I were recently
in a show in Glasgow together with two other artists. It was called
"The Social Engineer." Briefly, it was concerned with social control,
particularly in terms of how it is attempted in different neighbourhoods
especially through town planning. This is very close to the subjects
I usually work with. Modernist ideals and how they have been expressed
in town planning and architecture in the period dating from the
20s and 30s, with classic architects such as Le Corbusier, Bauhaus,
etc. - and how it really caught on in the different suburban developments
in Europe throughout the 50s and 60s. I have dealt quite a lot with
these suburban areas, which are almost entire cities, built in a
very short time and with everything planned beforehand. Areas where
one had attempted, based on very worthy ideals, to insure a decent
place to live for everyone and areas where all basic needs were
supposed to be fulfilled. There were to be schools, daycare facilities
and different town centers in the immediate vicinity, and the various
town sections were to be organized at different levels where people
could meet; plazas, parks, soccer fields, playgrounds, etc. I grew
up in such a suburb, and this is probably one of the reasons for
my interest, and I was happy to live there as a child. It felt very
safe. One always knew what to expect, but I gradually became dissatisfied
with it when I was about fifteen years old for this very same reason.
Wanting to do something other than what was expected, that is, something
other than starting a new family oneself in the same place, didn’t
seem like a possibility. In attempting to insure that every wish
was fulfilled in advance for the residents, needs were obviously
carefully thought about, determined. It’s important to note that
this does not only apply to housing construction in the 60s; it's
more or less valid for all town planning. When one tries to build
an ideal town, or an ideal society, a number of people who don't
correspond with these ideals are excluded.
SANNE: Perhaps one
might say that there are some common frames of references for this
discussion. We have certain areas both south and north of Copenhagen,
where we have traditional family ideals and “father-mother-child”
as well as the eternal reproductivity around which all things are
structured. This is where we run into problems that have become
quite apparent during the last 15-20 years: suddenly there are more
and more people who no longer identify with these traditional family
values. This has led to some strange displacements, where some of
the earlier ideal (and idealizing) living quarters have become ghettoes
for people who are positioned low on the social scale. A large number
of these are immigrants, who today represent a cultural "other"
as well as belong to a lower social class with poor education, low
income, etc.
JAKOB: Regarding
the areas that have been hit particularly hard with social problems,
which is often the areas known for having many immigrants, there
is a certain tendency to talk about the problems as though they
are caused exclusively by the housing estates. Issues are sidestepped
completely by talking about them as though it was the housing's
fault, ignoring fundamental social, political and economic problems.
One is able to trivialize an incredible number of problems by turning
away from the actual reasons for them, pretending that it is because
people live in high-rises. Yet there are other people who live in
quite luxurious housing estates, Arne Jacobsen apartment blocks
in Nordsjælland for example, who are not plagued by social problems.
One nevertheless pretends that a wide range of social problems arise
because some houses are built in concrete with many people living
in them. Thus the real problems are overlooked. Of course at the
moment there is another and very popular version of the same thing
which is to blame it all on the immigrants. [....]
HENRIK: I guess the
political consciousness is connected to the archiving of history.
If you visit a Danish museum, Feminism will not be represented.
This artistic position can then only be interpreted as an issue
which has never been existing.
SANNE: Naturally,
the attitude that art and politics have nothing to do with each
other is part of a symptom, especially in the intellectual part
of public debate. I really believe this is a problem not only in
Denmark, but in Scandinavian art as a whole. And this is totally
ridiculous. Art and politics have always been related. Today, as
one faces great social and political changes - here as much as any
other place - it is certainly important to raise the issue again,
to say that we have to do something. Without having to declare political
manifestos, we must at least stop trying to ignore the political
presence in art. Perhaps we can return to what Jakob just said,
what I would call a staging of human lives. An optimal scenario
for how things work is sketched out, with schools and houses and
daycare and community centers. The way one lives if one is Danish
and middle-class, or if one is middle-class regardless of where
one lives in Europe. But Henrik, this also seems to have something
to do with the exclusion, isn’t it the same staging you refer to
when you are speaking of poverty or homosexuality, that one becomes
excluded from this staging?
HENRIK: My projects
often concern how certain groups in our society get categorized
by public laws and definitions. Concerning poor people, there is
an estimated evaluation of whether one is poor or not, a poverty
line. I am interested in these categorizations and their function.
I am interested in how these groups is represented in contemporary
culture. For example, 10% of the population are gays and lesbians.
On the other hand we have a Danish museum, a national and democratic
institution, which have never made an exhibition concerning this
10%. I want to find out why the representation of the homosexual,
the poor, or other of the so called marginal groups, for that matter,
still are connected to exclusion. This is not only in the context
of a Museum but everywhere within our culture, in history books,
in the media, etc. Even though there are no gays on TV, you still
have to pay your license fee. I believe that this set-up satisfies
a concept of a specific idea of heterosexual middle-class identity,
as you say, Sanne. A problem today is that even though there has
been a lot of talking, the situation has not changed.
SANNE: I have experienced
this as well, in that I have been occupied with feminist art and
art history. Right from the start, people were tired of hearing
about feminism for the God knows how many time, eventhough no one
had really heard about the subject since the 70s. At least I hadn't.
No one spoke of feminism in my adult life, and when I went to school
noone did either.
JAKOB: That's interesting,
considering how much Scandinavians characterize themselves as nations
that place a high value on equal opportunity in all areas. It's
worth noting that public art discourse concerning women and gay/lesbian
representation has been far greater in the US than it has ever been
here. In Denmark, it has been pretty much non-existent, at least
in the period since the 70s.
HENRIK: I think that
there is this idea in Denmark that liberation has already taken
place. And it is reflected in the entire political system. If one
looks at the political landscape, only small superficial changes
can be seen rather than deeper ideological changes. The idea of
social progress has turned into status quo.
SANNE: Yes, one thinks
things are perfectly fine the way they are. Yet I think that a lot
of what happened in the 90s has helped, viewed from a relatively
short perspective. There are now several women artists - at least
in our own small, local context - making their mark on the art scene.
Earlier, the problem has always been centered around the fact, that
while men and women coming out of the Academy were split fifty/fifty,
it has been more unusual for women to maintain a professional career.
HENRIK: You organized
an exhibition presenting women artists only - how did people react,
did anyone understand why it was important? SANNE: We ran into the
usual problems. There were some people - not only men - who thought
that it was absolutely unnecessary, and even some of the artists
in the exhibition would rather have been part of a mixed exhibition.
Of course! We all would. But there were also some who thought it
was great. There were some women artists from the Academy who were
working at that time with feminist concerns from a contemporary
perspective. Anyway, the exhibition was a gender political statement
- that was the intent. There was no attempt to say that women have
something particular in common artistically. Regarding your work,
Henrik, which deals with homosexuality, has it become easier to
get the message through?
HENRIK: I don't know.
When I started to study at the academy in Copenhagen, I had never
seen an exhibition concerning gay identity. At least I have become
more informed and I know that a lot of things have happened. But
I don't think the sexual political issues are always taken so seriously.
SANNE: Do you have
the same experience, Jakob, with the problems you address in your
works; that people forget to take them seriously, concentrating
on other qualities instead ?
JAKOB: I have experienced
people focusing solely on the formal qualities, that's pretty common.
Perhaps particularly in Denmark, where, as we talked about, solidarity
and similar social ideals, seem to be considered outdated discussions,
so I think there are some who view my work as a kind of nostalgia
project. Actually I have recently tried hard to avoid it being seen
as such ‘cause that is not what the work is about. I don't know
why people would consider politics and a housing project as nostalgia
and also, many of the other subjects are common everyday issues
in the year 2000; subculture, popular culture and high culture such
as music, soccer and art. Of course some of the references are quite
specific, and it may well be that it is easier for people who know
who Plastikman is to understand what is going on, but as a rule
I try to allow for different approaches to the work. I hope that
people can use parts and then perhaps move on to the next piece.
It is unlikely that anyone would recognize all of the elements in
all of the works.
SANNE: It is fun
to see with Henrik's works as well, that some people seem unable
to relate neither to the aesthetics nor the content. They become
totally confused and just give up. There was a critic, for instance,
in Weekendavisen who wrote that it was not art at all. Interesting.
There is this tendency, that people anticipate that art primarily
has a form, to which they exclusively relate. And if the form is
dissolved, say a piece of wood on the floor, where there is no real
aesthetic value to be seen, one is at a complete loss.
HENRIK: You are talking
about Århus Art Museum. I guess it was important for me to point
out that no homosexual identity or history has ever been archived
in this museum. At the same time I wanted to find something already
existing in the context of the museum - and to label this as representing
the gay and lesbian past - to say that this identity has always
been present but never shown. I went to the basement of the museum
and here I found 5 lengths of skirting boards which I installed
in the exhibition. Then I entitled this formal interior as representing
the excluded homosexual history. I guess, this one critic meant
that I could not claim that a piece of wood was gay or that five
lengths of skirting boards could ever describe homosexuality. He
could only look at these interior pieces as non-coded and formal.
But nothing is. I wanted to point out how a museum presents art
and how a museum categories art, because that is what they do, after
all, at a museum. The reaction by this critic has once again something
to do with his attitude towards sexual politics. A heterosexual
male critic may not think it is of any importance to talk about
politics, sexuality and representation in a museum, probably because
it doesn't relate to his position. The problem is that at the same
time he does not believe that it can be meaningful to other visitors
at the museum, for homosexuals, i.e.. This is the conflict. He wants
his museum to be purely heterosexual.
SANNE: Collage, montage
and installations that draw on the procedure of montage are expressions
where it is important for form and content to merge, contributing
or constructing a meaning in context. It is good old avant-garde
strategy.
JAKOB: I like the
old Russian Constructivists very much, and also for instance Moholy-Nagy
and Hannah Höch. Those works look good and all, but both form and
content have a clear political meaning and relate very directly
to everyday life. SANNE: All the more reason that it seems strange
that people don't think about content because it assumes the form
of collage. No one is going to look at a Heartfield from 1938 and
say oh my, how pretty it is. [....]
HENRIK: I guess it
is urgent to speak about what you can do from your cultural position.
We find ourselves in a situation in Europe that is problematic,
in terms of racism and other cultural conflicts. Sanne, you're making
an exhibition in NIKOLAJ with Turkish artists... I believe this
is important... and it is one of the few I have seen that takes
a stand. Though it seems as you don't directly say that it is an
anti-racist exhibition.
SANNE: But it comes
through in one way or another. Clearly, in relation to this entire
debate, there is no place for foreigners in our society. I don't
know precisely how large a percentage of the country's population
have different ethnic origins. Nonetheless, it is so small (a few
percent) that it shouldn't be a big problem or get so much attention
in the media. And I think that one ought to go in and take a stand.
It's been awhile now since the Turkish exhibition was planned, and
that was when this whole debate began to heat up in Denmark. It's
just luck, one might say, that the exhibition opens now, when debate
is raging. That is precisely the intent of the exhibition, to show
art from Turkey and confront prejudice and the stereotypes one has
in this country about what a Turkish person is. It is based on art
in Istanbul, and Istanbul is in fact a European capital; walking
the main street there is like walking the streets of any European
capital, with certain differences, naturally. I can buy the same
things, do the same things, go to bars, galleries, whatever. I think
it's important to tackle the cultural prejudice that is predominant
in Denmark toward the Turkish population here. It's because one
has some idea of foreigners sitting on the floor and eating with
their fingers, that is, some limited concepts about other people,
that reflects a terrible intolerance. Many have lived here for many
years. Some are intellectuals and some are not, so the Turks have
all different kinds of educational backgrounds. Many of them cannot
get work because they have a different kind of last name, one that
isn't Olsen or Nielsen or Hansen. It is essential to focus on the
problems and still show art that is good. It is uninteresting to
mount an exhibition if the art itself is not good. It should not
be, well, now comes all the exciting stuff from the Orient. It has
relevance and at the same time it is art, that has something to
offer. HENRIK: What do you think are some of the reasons for Danish
culture not being aware of such problems?
SANNE: These problems
are both European and Danish. I think it's like Jakob's suburban
house; one has a very fixed notion and pattern set out for how things
should be, and in some respects - perhaps this is a bit strong -
people are not particularly enlightened. We have a school system
that really is good, yet travelling abroad is often considered a
little dangerous. Angst for the unknown.
JAKOB: I think, again,
it has to do with some Scandinavian notion of having invented the
best way of life. We are raised being told that we live in the best
country in the world. Another thing relevant to this discussion
and which I think is interesting is that many views and theories
of the city hold that cities get their power from diversity. This
allows for greater tolerance, since one meets different kinds of
people. But the suburbs, both apartment buildings and tract houses,
have the opposite function, everything has been rationalized, with
the city divided into different areas for sports, shopping, living
quarters, work etc. But this rationalizing also leads to dividing
areas according to social and economic conditions, barricaded from
one another and thereby looking at the suburb next door from a distance.
The advantages of diversity found in cities - and there are not
too many larger cities in Denmark, or in Scandinavia for that matter
- are thus being countered by the new urban planning in recent years;
suburban developments.
Originally published
in catalogue for Momentum, Moss, Norway, 2000
ISBN82-994634-1-6
Henrik Olesen is
an artist, lives and works in Berlin, Germany
Sanne Kofod Olsen is a curator and art critic, lives and works in
Copenhagen, Denmark
|
|